To barre or not to barre

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Patrick Curley on June 7, 2010 at 8:30pm

I've seen it (the thumb over the top) used to free up another finger but other than that I'm not convinced that it's an essential technique. I use it occasionally but prefer to barre when possible. It is also quite an awkward position for the hand, for most people at least, and that's never a good thing if you're using it all the time.

Lots of people do though, plenty of the older blues guys did, possibly more by accident than design.

Permalink Reply by Ian Goodsman on June 8, 2010 at 1:05am

If you are used to having your thumb at the back of the neck then it must be quite difficult. I must admit I use both and seem to slip in and out as needed nowadays without thinking too much. It is a shape you can use up and down the neck and occasionally my thumb seems to follow on with a move that, if I were using a barre, might be more difficult for me e.g. Merle Travis' Cannonball Rag where you use, at one point where you change from an E to an A, the thumb technique to fret the lower E string on fret four and then to fret five - I personally find the thumb technique easier than if I were barring on that move. However, other numbers I use a barre. I understand from Grossman that the Rev Gray Davis used the thumb technique a lot and could barrre across two strings with his rather large thumb. Good luck, Ian

Permalink Reply by Nebojsa Bojer on June 9, 2010 at 7:51am

Thanks for the replies. I'll keep working at the thumb just to have another tool in my toolbox as they say.

Permalink Reply by Donna Smith on June 9, 2010 at 8:25pm

Using your thumb is the traditional way to play an F bass note in an F chord when playing country blues. You will find that it will allow you greater manuverability and speed when you need it. Using a barre helps me in a pinch when I simply can't reach things, but at this point the thumb bass note is preferable. It adds a particular accented sound to the rhythm. It is worth developing the technique. It will come in real handy when you turn your attention to Rev. Gary Davis.

Permalink Reply by Jim Robinson on June 24, 2010 at 3:29pm

I studied classical guitar early on in my guitar-playing days and resisted this thumb over technique for too long. In this style of music, Grossman is absolutely correct and it is essential for many of the country blues licks. There are bends and such where you just need to do this and in the long run, you'll be better off playing the F form chords this way all the time. To really play this style, you'll have to break yourself of that classical thumb on the back of the neck center-or-below position into a position where we see the tip of your thumb a lot of the time. This will take some time if you're truly ingrained in the classical style, but it is worth it to play country blues. (You'll find it a lot easier to do if you don't try to do it on a wide-necked classical guitar.) Watch Jim Bruce, Stefan Grossman, Happy Traum, or do a search on this site of videos and find people who can really play the songs of Miss. John Hurt, Rev. Gary Davis, Blind Blake, etc., and I think you'll that every single one of them uses the thumb over method almost 100% of the time. I think after observing these guys play, you can draw your own conclusion.

Permalink Reply by Michael T. Swisher on July 29, 2010 at 8:15am

As you may have already discovered, there are some traditional blues sounds in the unbarred version of F. Raising your second finger (M) gives you a Minor chord (G sharp)in a barre but you get a 9th (G) without the barre. Similarly, raising your ring finger (R) plays a 6th instead of a 7th. Try a hammer off while finger picking and you'll hear some classic blues grace notes in the keys of B-flat, C & F. The Thumb gets you the lower root tone, but in the key of C, C is more likely to be the drone note.

With your classical training, the syncopation of a good rag should be easy enough. Have at it.

Permalink Reply by Jim Robinson on August 2, 2010 at 10:51am

This is the "Country Blues" forum, right? The thumb-over technique is definitely an essential technique in country blues. Don't take my advice, or advice from anyone else: Go to YouTube and watch videos of anyone that you can find that plays in this style (Mississippi John Hurt, Rev. Gary Davis, Pink Anderson, Mance Lipscomb, Lightnin' Hopkins, whoever it is you'd like to emulate, etc., etc.). Watch all the other blues players, too.

I contend that country blues guitar (probably all blues guitar, I've yet to find a counter example) should be played with the thumb up on that ceiling-side part of the neck, not only so that it can fret the low E string (allowing for fingerings not possible with the barre), but also to act as a fulcrum for bending strings. Those who say it is uncomfortable need to realize that it would be just as uncomfortable for a blues guy to switch their thumb to the floor-side of the neck as a classical guitarist would. If you want to play blues, find a guitar with a neck that you can get your thumb around. If you want to play some other style of music, that's okay, and it is quite proper to barre all the time. If you want to be able to play most anything in the blues repertoire (and the country blues repertoire), the thumb-over is an absolutely essential technique, unequivocally. Watch Ian Goodsman play "Salty Dog" or "Police Dog Blues" on YouTube.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything of the sort, I just feel very strongly that if we are talking about country blues -- and I think we all have a pretty common general understanding of what that means what that repertoire would include -- then anyone that is giving advice that the thumb-over is not an essential element of that style is just leading people down the wrong path and giving bad advice. Look at the evidence -- I challenge anyone who doubts this to go to YouTube and watch the real players. No matter what people may say, this is the way this style music is played by those who really play it. If someone really wants to play in the blues style, I think they should start by getting that thumb up on the neck, just as a classical instructor would tell you the opposite. I'm not dogmatic about most things, but I do believe that certain things are done a certain way for a reason, and not "by accident." I don't think you can play these songs properly/effectively/comfortably by moving your thumb back and forth from a classical to a blues position and I don't think you should break the rules until you know the rules and though it may be unwritten, this is a rule of the blues.

I'm sorry if anyone is offended by what I've said, I am sorry, that is not my intent. This is my last word on this subject.

Permalink Reply by Steve Widmeyer on August 19, 2010 at 7:03pm

I've never been able to use my thumb on the low E to avoid using the barred E position--my fingers are too short. I knew a guy in high school whose fingers (and thumbs) were so long that he never played a barre chord for anything, including the barred Am and Em and Amaj7 positions. God, was I jealous! That said, it seems to me that using the thumb in this fashion clamps the hand down so tightly on the neck that you can't navigate finger movement to finger any melody lines out of the "thumbed" chord.